Episode 191: Empowering School Leaders with Dr. Kelly Hastings

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 00:01

All right, my friends, welcome back into the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. This is episode 191. My guest on the show today is Dr. Kelly Hastings, and we'll talk about her here in just a moment. As always, Dr. Darren Peppered here to bring you powerful conversations that are designed to help you grow as a leader. And before we really get into the meat of today's episode, I just wanna quickly remind you to hit that subscribe button so you never miss.

a new episode of the podcast. And for that matter, if you've been enjoying the podcast, I would really love it if you would take a moment and leave a review. It really helps others to find the show and to join this incredible community that we have created with the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. on to today's episode. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Kelly Hastings, who is an experienced school principal leadership coach and is the founder of Enlightening Leadership.

Now, Kelly is really passionate about helping leaders grow, about navigating change, and about implementing sustainable initiatives in schools. In this particular conversation, Kelly is going to share her journey into the classroom and from the classroom to leadership, and how mentorship and coaching really helped to transform her career. As well, she's going to share the power of implementation science, which isn't a

that helps school leaders really drive lasting and meaningful change. It's a fantastic episode and I know you're going to love it. Also a quick reminder that if you are a school leader who is looking to build a stronger leadership team, improve your systems, lead with clarity, and improve the culture and climate on your campus, I would love to support you. Whether that's leadership coaching, professional development, keynote speaking, or team building strategies, hey,

Let's connect and talk about how I can help your school, your district, or your event get on that road to awesome. Now you can reach me anytime through my website road to awesome.net or connect with me on LinkedIn on X on Facebook on Instagram. All of that stuff is down there in the show notes for you. Definitely let's get connected. Let's get your school and your leadership team on the road to awesome. Alright with that.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 02:23

Let's jump into this episode here with Dr. Kelly Hastings on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. I'll see you on the other side.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 00:06

All right, my friends, welcome in. I'm super excited to have this conversation today with Dr. Kelly Hastings. Those of you who are regular listeners to the show, you know how much I enjoy having conversations with school principals. I certainly love having conversations with people who are in that leadership coaching space. And man, when you get people who are in both spaces at the same time, it's absolutely fantastic. So,

Super excited about this conversation before we get to that. Dr. Hastings, welcome to the Leaning Into Leadership podcast.

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 00:41

Thank you so much. It's really good to be here.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 00:44

Again, I'm excited to have this conversation with you. mean, obviously we've had some time to visit and to catch up and some of those types of things. We share some spaces in common with the work that we do, which is always exciting. Before we get into some of the things I want to talk about with you today, I'd like to have you maybe share just a little bit of who you are. mean, you give as much or as little as you would like, but kind of orient our leaders or

rather our listeners to who the leader is that is Dr. Kelly Hastings.

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 01:20

Okay. Okay. So getting into that a little bit, I am a mom, first of all, and I think that really has guided me to who I am. Being a mother, I'm also a grandmother. I have four grandkids. That is the best thing in the world. I highly recommend it. Getting into that, the personal life a little bit,

I think being in education, I didn't start teaching until my youngest was in kindergarten. So I was able to stay home with the kids, very involved in PTA, helping the teachers out, and then started teaching. that really, I got some great models before I even stepped foot into the classroom as a teacher. That was a wonderful start to being a leader. And then I...

helped at school whenever, you know, we all know the people who, when something needs to be done, oh, like, you know, some of us can't say no. And that was me, just helping whenever I could. And I think that servant leadership piece is inherent to being a good leader. People need things and we don't always know what they are. So it's important for us to listen and to reach out because people don't always say what they need. just.

listening and watching what's going on. think that as a mother and as a grandmother has helped me be a better leader, for sure. I was also the oldest of seven children. So, you know, there's that. I would think I was relied on growing up as well. So that's fine.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 03:00

Yeah.

Yeah, so

you make your way into being a teacher a little bit later than maybe some, which is totally fine. I didn't have my first classroom until I was 26. So most it's like, you get out of college, you're 21, you're 22, you're in the classroom. I was 26 before I had my first classroom. So to an extent, I understand.

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 03:10

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 03:28

you know, kind of what you're saying there. let's now kind of play that forward into your leadership journey because obviously from that classroom time, eventually you made that transition into the school level leadership stuff. So maybe talk a little bit about that, but also share with us maybe, if you can, who, if there was somebody, was that one that kind of tapped you on the shoulder that said, hey, you you should be thinking about school leadership.

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 03:57

Yeah. So I was a teacher, right? And there was a principal who was opening up a new school and he was trying to get to know some of the teachers. And he was really one to say, hey, are you interested in doing this? Have you considered? And I did go get my masters at that point in curriculum because I never thought I would be in school leadership. That was never on my radar.

So I was like, well, no, I just had to take three more classes. So I did. went back and took those three classes. And I don't know that I would have done that if he wouldn't have said, hey, have you thought about because that'd be great. I also remember when I, I'm a big learner. I love to learn. That is one of my top five strengths. And so I was taking some GT classes and I got endorsed for gifted and talented.

And the professor there was like, you're going to be a principal one day. And I'm like, no, I'm not. And she said, yes, you are. You just wait. so just, you know, a couple of people saying things like that. I think it's important when we recognize that in others that we do say, you know, you might not be ready right now, but have you considered it's a tough job and we need really good people in it. And so us reaching out to those good people, I think is

can only help our profession.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 05:27

Yeah, well, think that's, I love that and maybe we'll kind of chase that for just a moment. I really feel the same way. I think as leaders, one of the moral imperatives we have is to grow more leaders. Whether that's growing leaders in our students, growing teacher leaders, or growing those aspiring leaders who are looking at

you know, a principal position, an AP position, an instructional coach, you know, maybe, maybe somebody for some crazy reason thinks, Hey, I want to be a superintendent someday. Right. I remember I did that too. Um, you know, for whatever reason. Yeah. I mean, I think as, as leaders in our building, once we kind of figure it out, like kind of how to get the job done and done right. Once we're at that point, um, you know, I was, I was in a, in a school today.

One of my two schools here in the Omaha Metro region, two of my high schools that I work with and support, was there today. And we had that exact conversation about how do you grow and build that leadership bench? How do you ensure that the people who are in your classrooms that are interested in that, how do we make sure we're pulling those people?

you know, forward tapping them on the shoulder, inviting them to the table, whatever phrase you might want to put on that. I know it's not what we said we were going to talk about, but I want to chase this for just a minute. As a leader yourself, both being brought to the table, but then also bringing others to the table, what were some of the things that you did intentionally or saw done that could certainly help some of our listeners who are maybe struggling with that same thing?

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 07:15

Yeah, that's a, that's the, it's an, like you called it a moral imperative. I totally agree with you. So some of the things that, that I did was reach out to whoever wanted to be a leader on campus. We had department leaders, right? But I had leadership meetings. So it's anybody who wants to come. You don't have to be an official leader on campus. If you want to learn more, come to these meetings.

And we talked about leadership. We talked about what it looks like, because if you're a teacher and you love being in the classroom, you're probably not going to get your master's in educational leadership, right? You want, you're happy where you are. That doesn't mean we don't still need people with great leadership skills in the classroom. So teaching leadership skills, I think really has helped. They, the teachers see things from a different perspective. you, you know,

what the expectations for leaders are, line those out, kind of talk about what that looks like, teach those skills, and then practice those skills. Ideally, we coach on those skills, but I haven't done that. I would love to be able to do that. But you know, it's a progression. You mentioned a progression for sure. But if we don't share our expectations for what leadership looks like, especially for teachers, you know, how are we going to grow leaders?

We have to be very explicit. We have to teach, we have to coach, we have to build those skills sometimes. Some have it inherently, right? But not everyone does. So teaching those skills has been helpful.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 08:53

Yeah, no, I think that's really important because so often what we see, especially right now, because, you know, there has been this pretty significant amount of turnover in the both school and district leadership levels over the last, let's say, three to five years. And it certainly the leadership pipeline isn't empty. People are in there, but they're going through so, so quickly that they haven't necessarily been.

through some of those intentional things we do as school leaders to help prepare them to move forward. So we definitely see people who aren't necessarily like, you know, as prepared as we normally would be. I think that's a huge piece and I want to tie it back to specifically, and I don't remember if you've said it or not, you've told me so folks, if...

Dr. Hastings didn't say it. She was a middle school principal. She actually is a middle school principal again right now, actually is an interim. We're going to get to that in a few minutes, but there's something unique about middle school. And I mentioned this to you a little bit ago, Dr. Frederick Busky and I are doing some things with, the state of North Carolina specifically around supporting middle school principals. So as somebody who did it for, for quite some time,

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 10:06

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 10:15

who is doing it right now. Let's talk about maybe some of those differences or some of the things that are unique to being a middle school principal. Let's really lean into our middle school folks right now. So folks, if you're listening and you're a high school person or you're an elementary person, hey, stick with us on this, right? mean, let's throw, let's show some love to the middle school folks because they never get that right. Let's show them a little bit of love.

Kelly, let's talk about that. What are some things that those special nuances to being a middle school principal?

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 10:49

Well, I think the biggest thing are, and it seems to me at different levels, our teachers are similar to our kids. So kids at middle school are fun loving and want to have a good time and are very social. And I think a lot of our middle school teachers are the same. They're fun loving. They want to have a good time while they teach. They're very social. So understanding your staff and your teachers is really important and meeting their needs is really important.

Also thinking about the students. So middle school students, it's a tough time in life, right? They don't know whether they're coming or going and we're there with them on a daily basis to support their learning, first of all, their social emotional growth. And all that is combined more so I think in middle school than in elementary or high school.

And so just being cognizant of the needs of middle school kids and reminding teachers their brains are not fully developed, you know, really does help when you're dealing with some of the, I don't want to say crazy, but some of the chaos and the behaviors that might come with trying to find out who you are.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 12:04

Yeah.

Yeah, so let's maybe dive into that just a little bit further. I mean, we're not too far away and certainly as an interim principal, you'll probably be working through the hiring season just as if it was your building when hiring. And so I told you, I know people here on the show are aware of this too. My first five years in the classroom were spent as a middle school teacher. I wanted to be a high school science teacher. I never thought I wanted to be a middle school teacher.

I wanted to be a head basketball coach. know, all of this kind of stuff. Middle school was not on my radar, but that's where the job offer came. And I jokingly say I served five years at at the, at the middle school, you know, but the truth is I loved teaching middle school, but I think sometimes when, when hiring, he'll run into a situation like mine, right? Like you need a science teacher, you need a social studies teacher.

And most of them, you know, they, they really want to teach social studies because they love us history or they love whatever, right? They are in love with their content. That's what secondary people do. Right? I mean, I was in love with anatomy and physiology. mean, that's like that, that one was my wheelhouse. I love that. So when you're hiring for middle school and you're wanting to keep in mind both the needs of your kids, the need for somebody with

a tremendous amount of patience and understanding because you've got to have that at the middle school level. Talk a little bit about maybe how do you vet that? How do you look for, or do you even, I'm sure you do, how do you kind of work that through with your committee and as the individual who gets to make that final decision for this person may know mathematics like there's no tomorrow.

but I don't think this person can connect with kids. Talk a little bit about some of that.

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 14:14

Yeah, so content is important, right? Teachers have to know their content. But it's very easy to teach that. These people are college educated. They have teaching certifications. They can learn. I think it's the mindset that you really have to look for in interviews. Are you going to like the middle school kids? First of all, how are you gonna connect? Giving scenarios about that in the interview questions.

And then really getting a feel for who they are as a person. think scenarios, asking scenarios in interviews are helpful because you get to see more about how people really are. So there's definitely that. And yes, the content is important. They have to be certified or we can't hire them, at least not in public school mostly. But that is not the most important thing. The most important thing is going to be how do you connect with kids?

and being a team member. How are you going to work with your team as well? mean, those soft skills that we call soft skills are the most important thing when hiring. I was actually talking with the principal this morning. He's a high school principal and he said that he was so proud they got all their hiring right. All their new teachers, they want to keep all their new teachers. So I asked him, what did you do differently? And that's what he said. We didn't focus on the content. We focused on

how they connected with people and did it right. So they have something good going on there. Same thing, yeah.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 15:48

Yeah, that's awesome. And

yeah, well, and I think that kind of connects a little bit to where I want to go next with this. And that's your work with enlightening leadership. So, you know, you've, you had a wonderful career, you did, you know, you did the principleship, all of those types of things. And, and then said, Hey, you know what, I can't get enough leadership, I got to go help other leaders. And I know the draw to that I get the draw to that, right?

But I'm curious to hear you talk a little bit about specifically how you focus on supporting leaders. then maybe we'll come back to another question here where we can kind of lean into those aspiring leaders a little bit more. But let's talk first about enlightening leadership, about kind of how you approach the work that you do with school leaders.

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 16:37

Okay. Well, it all started when I was working with my previous district and we were able to join a statewide organization that supported public education. It's called the Holdsworth Organization and people, districts applied and then as a result, campuses applied and took teams to how do we get better as a school, right?

But during that process, I was coached. I had a leadership coach for a whole year and we, they guided us through this process. Well, that, and I don't, I'm not saying this lightly, that changed who I was as a leader. Being able to talk through something with someone who was there to support me, was not there to evaluate me. They were there to support and listen, guide. you know, they were my thoughts, but

a sounding board, a safe sounding board. And you're nodding because you do this. It's so powerful. Yeah. When I, when I experienced this, it's like, this is what I want to do when I grow up, you know, I found what I want to do. So when I retired, I became certified with international coaching federation and worked with principals to support them. And at first it was just, what do you need?

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 17:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 18:01

and we talked about what are your goals, we talked about that and just a safe sounding board. It kind of has transitioned a little bit because I have been also learning about implementation science and became certified as an implementation science support person. using this, because we're always trying new things, right?

They don't always work. And it's not because it's not a good thing, but it's because either, well, there are lot of reasons, but either we're not doing it with a good team who's guiding this, who's the guiding coalition for this, or it's because I don't have time to really lead this. We're also doing five other things that I need to focus on.

So coaching through implementation science is coaching the principal on whatever their new initiative is, but it's also getting a team together and following a process so that these things are revisited. Say you're implementing a new reading program, okay? So you're getting a team together and the principal isn't making all the decisions. This really lets the principal off the hook a lot because

I know when I was first a principal, I thought I had to have all the answers and principals don't have to have all the answers. They have people around them that really, when we hear the answers in the room, the answer really most of the time is in the room. And if it's not, we have the internet to help us find the answers, right? But everybody has a different perspective. So it's really coaching the principal on getting those different perspectives into the conversation.

and then acting on those, not just listening, but acting on those as well. And then the principal and I talk and it's a safe space. They can vent if they need to vent. Then we get back to, here's, here's, you know, where you are. How do you think it needs to go? But, relying on implementation science as something to ground those discussions. And part of that is teaching leadership.

to the teachers and whoever is on that guiding coalition, teaching leadership skills so that they better understand and can better lead. The principal and the assistant principals are not the only leaders on the campus and they shouldn't be, right? Let's build that teacher leadership and really make the difference. We all are in this for the right reasons and let's use this to help make a difference for what we want to see kids be able to achieve.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 20:48

Yeah, absolutely. I want to go little bit further with the implementation science because I find this absolutely fascinating. I certainly I have been on the successful end and the wildly unsuccessful end of implementation. Yeah, and you know, I mean, I think back, I mean, just listening to you talk about that, I think about, you know, maybe the Career Academy development work.

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 21:04

Likewise.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 21:16

that I was able to lead actually as an assistant principal. We had such a great team that was a part of this, you know, and certainly it was delegated to me to lead this implementation, but I didn't make a lot of decisions. We collectively made a lot. It's just listening to you talk about that and really reflecting on why that was so wildly successful. And

thinking about some of the ones that did not go well. had the assistant superintendent that when he went to a conference, we just went, here we go, something new is coming. And it was top down, do this. The big failures for us typically were things we would hear from teachers like, I just have too much on my plate. You're asking too much of me. Heck, I even had teachers who would say, when do I just teach?

We had 13 initiatives in the air at one time. I'm not joking. mean, holy cow. How do you handle that? my question, what I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about, maybe address the, do we help the team support when they hear things like, well, I have too much on my plate or, you know, how do you help a group or an individual then to the group?

create an appetite for the initiative that they want to bring forward.

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 22:49

Yeah, that's a great question because I don't think we're going to get away from top down. We're going to have, we're always going to have that. I think, but what you need to do is to understand why and the needs. So when you can adequately explain why we're doing this and what the needs are, what does the data show and explaining that, then you start getting people on board. It's creating that purposeful team.

intentional look at who would be good on this team. We want people who are strong leaders. We want people who have good relationships with their peers. And just thinking about the strong leadership, we're gonna build on that. So if they're not strong leaders, it's okay. We're gonna work on that. But people who have good relationships, who have positive attitudes, who can really...

see and understand and who are influential with their peers. Those are important people to get on your team. And then following implementation science, there's a very solid structure that you can follow that's not rocket science. It's just building the team. That's the hardest part and getting their input to say, what are we going to do? How are we going to do this? And the thing that most of us don't do, and I have been guilty of this

Probably because I was very innovative as the principal and it's like, let's do this. Come on guys, let's do this. And what I think is most important is intentionally planning for that. You have to look at what do you need? What are the professional learning that you need? You're gonna plan it out. You're gonna calendar it out. When are we gonna meet about this? Well, if you don't meet and it's not staying at the top of your priority list,

it's probably not gonna be important to other people either. So planning those implementation team meetings also, you have to be explicit with what do we want to see in classrooms and determine what that is. If it's a good evidence-based program, they're gonna have that for you. Sometimes you're gonna have to develop it yourselves. You know, what do we wanna see? And then go into classrooms.

make sure you do those walkthroughs, make sure you're in the classes to see how it goes, bringing the data back to the team. And one of the things I learned, and it was from Janice Pizzuto who wrote a book, Implement with Impact. So one of the things I learned from her is that you have to listen. The principal ideally is not the chairman of that

committee because people will defer to the principal. So the principal needs to be the lead listener in that committee and really let people talk about how it's going and listen and not react negatively and but understand where they're coming from. Listen. Maybe it's not going well. Well, why not? And what do I need to do differently to support them? What do they need not to be? You know, we can't we shouldn't blame teachers.

Because when initiatives go not the way we want them to, it's not the teacher's fault. We haven't been explicit with what we need to see or want to see, the program, whatever the initiative is. So usually it's a leadership, a lack of effective leadership. Not intentionally, people want it to go well, just we don't know what to do. A lot of us didn't know what to do when we're implementing. And there's some specific strategies.

some specific steps that you take. And that's what I have been sharing with people. And I think it's been really helpful.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 26:49

Yeah, no, I think it's outstanding stuff. No question about that. That's definitely some solid things. And we'll make sure and link that book in the show notes as well. So people can check that out if they would like to. Yeah, absolutely. So, know, Kelly, our time is just flying by as it tends to be the case here on the show. We are we're at that point in time where I'm going to ask you the same question I ask everybody here on the Leading Into Leadership podcast.

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 27:00

good. It's a good one. Yeah.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 27:19

You've shared a lot of things that you're doing to lean into leadership, but maybe what's one other thing you're doing to lean into leadership right now?

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 27:28

I'm continuing to learn and when I learn things, sharing those things with other people, for sure.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 27:39

outstanding stuff. Okay, people are going to want to get in touch with you. They're going to want to be connected with you. Where do they find you and how do they get in touch with you?

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 27:49

Well, they can email me at kelly at enlightening leadership dot com. Happy to connect. I think I have a Facebook group. I have a LinkedIn group. So people are interested in implementation and want to hear more email me, go to one of those groups. Just trying to get the information out there to better support our our leaders the best way that I can.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 28:14

outstanding stuff. Thank you so much, Kelly, for joining me here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast.

Dr. Kelly Hastings (: 28:19

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Dr. Darrin Peppard

All right, as always, a fantastic conversation. Really appreciate having the opportunity to sit down with Kelly. She's somebody that I had connected through social media with, like so many others. And really respect what Kelly is doing. Really, I find it awesome that she has jumped into this interim role as a principal, which she shared, obviously, during the episode. And just really, really appreciate Dr. Kelly Hastings.

Make sure you get down on the show notes, check her out, check out enlightening leadership. Definitely worth your time. And now it's time for a pep talk. So for the pep talk this week, I just simply want to lean into one word and that word is peace. I've been writing an element for somebody else's document that they're putting together their manuscript specifically around peace. And I've really struggled with where I wanted to go with that struggled with How do I how do I quantify that? How do I make it something that is meaningful to me? recently we lost a very important member of our family and in that process seeing him come to peace with His decision seeing him come to peace with his with his fate I think really opened my eyes to embracing what peace truly is. It's an inner calm. is this understanding and it is this internal faith that we have, whether we're overtly faith driven people or not. Peace, I think, resides at our core.

Dr. Darrin Peppard (: 04:28

And I think peace specifically when we apply it to leadership is very closely connected to what I love to talk about with clarity when we have that real clear understanding definition, direction and vision of what it is that's happening in our schools. So as leaders this week, I want to challenge you to lean into that word, lean into peace.

And think about how as a leader can I bring peace to my organization, to those I am challenged with leading in order to best support them. I think that's definitely a word that means a lot to each and every one of us when we stop and genuinely think about it. So, that's what I've got for you this week, folks. I, really appreciate you joining me here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Again, make sure you subscribe, make sure you leave those reviews. We want to really ensure that we're sharing this episode and many others with as many people as possible so we can really spread and grow the community here with Leaning Into Leadership. Have a road to awesome week.