Episode 243: Unbreakable Leadership - Strategies for Surviving Toxic Environments with Kate Lowry

Darrin Peppard (: 00:00

Hey everybody, welcome back into the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. This is episode 243. And today we're going to talk about what you do, what strategies you can use when you're working with a toxic boss. Yeah, come on, let's be honest. Everybody at some point in time has worked under a leader whose main strategy is fear. The kind who just simply controls through intimidation.

or silence, or even shame. That could take a real toll on you. So that's why today we're going to sit down with Kate Lowry. She is the author of Unbreakable, How to Thrive Under Fear-Based Leaders. Now, before we jump into that though, I want to share a quick word about our new partners at Digicoach. Man, they have developed something that helped leaders build the opposite kind of culture that we're going to talk about with Kate.

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Darrin Peppard (: 02:26

and you drive improvement across your school where it truly matters with your teachers and ultimately with your students. Visit digicoach.com and mention that I sent you for some special partner pricing. Once again, that's digicoach.com. All right, let's get into today's conversation. Kate Lowry joins me to unpack what fear-based leadership really looks like, how to protect your energy and how to take your power back.

when you're caught in that kind of environment. Let's dive right in.

Darrin Peppard (: 00:01

All right, everybody, welcome back into the show. Today joining me is Kate Lowry. And Kate and I are gonna have a little conversation here about something that probably every single one of us have dealt with. And that is working with somebody whose primary leadership strategy is fear. For those of you who know me and know me well, you know that one of my favorite television programs of all time is How I Met Your Mother.

And there's an episode in How I Met Your Mother that I think really sets us up well for this conversation. There's a particular part of this episode titled The Chain of Screaming where Marshall has, let's just say, an overbearing boss who continues to just scream and scream and scream and yell and scream. And what makes that episode so interesting is that's something that probably all of us have experienced.

Not often do we have the toolkit, the knowledge, the wherewithal to survive working in that particular environment. And so that's why I'm so excited to have Kate joining us here on the show. Kate is the author of a brand new book titled Unbreakable, How to Thrive Under Fear-Based Leaders. So this is gonna be a really cool conversation. Really excited about this. Kate, welcome into Leading Into Leadership.

Kate Lowry (: 01:28

Thank you so much for having me, Darren.

Darrin Peppard (: 01:31

Yeah, absolutely. So let's do this, Kate. Let's orient our leaders just a little bit to who you are and what maybe led you to writing a book about fear-based leadership. And then we'll dive into our conversation. So let's go ahead and start with that.

Kate Lowry (: 01:48

Yes, definitely. So I'm a Silicon Valley based CEO coach, author, and venture capitalist. And I started writing this book this past spring because I noticed that my peers and my clients were really starting to spin out. There was a new leadership style kind of sweeping across tech, business, social, and public sector that was something we haven't seen in a long time.

And that is fear-based leadership, which is top-down, hierarchical, dominance-based leadership where it's kind of my way or the highway. And what I thought was interesting is that a lot of people around me were struggling with this, but I was totally fine. And that's when I realized that I had a toolkit that most people didn't have and set out to write it for other people.

Darrin Peppard (: 02:41

I think that's such an interesting piece. And you know, when you and I met the first time and had a conversation, I think I shared this with you, but if not, I'm going to share it anyway. One of the superintendents that I worked under very much would fit that category. Not the chain of screaming like I was talking about with how I met your mother, but rather the my way or the highway. And honestly, the primary leadership skill that that person brought to the table was punishment.

to gain compliance and this, you know, we'll make an example out of somebody so everyone else will fall in line. Share with me maybe some of the scenarios or even just one scenario that you were noticing, whether that's within your clients or friends of yours that were struggling with that exact same kind of thing.

Kate Lowry (: 03:32

Yes, definitely. So these types of leaders are really rigid. They're often really shame based. And so commonly people were coming to me and saying, man, I feel like I have to tiptoe around them. I feel like I have to walk on eggshells. It's like, I can't get anything right. You know, no matter what I do, I feel like I'm failing. And what was interesting is that I would be at my running group or at a coffee meetup.

and everyone was saying the same thing. We all have bosses like this. We don't know what to do. They're such difficult types of people. And they really are difficult types of people, but they're also really uncreative. And that means that tactics work really reliably on them if you know how to deal with them.

Darrin Peppard (: 04:19

Yeah, absolutely. So let's dive into that. Let's get into this toolkit that you said you discovered you kind of had these skills within and then really started to unpack them into a toolkit that ultimately has led to this book. let's start going into this. Let's talk about some of these tools that people can use to survive this type of environment.

Kate Lowry (: 04:42

Yes, so it starts by understanding how this type of leader thinks and makes choices. They operate in a totally different realm of rationale compared to you or me. It's all emotion, hierarchical, know, driven logic. And that means that it takes a little while to learn to understand their language. For example, in their world, there's no such thing as equality. You're either stepping on someone else or being stepped on.

They don't believe that fairness is something that should exist, right? It's it's if someone's in power, you know, might makes right. And so once you kind of understand how they think about things and make choices, then you can start trying to run circles around them. And so first that helps by understanding the types of currency they use to operate. One of the main things that they really need is attention.

Another thing they need is information. So if you can set out with a strategy to control how much attention they're receiving and how much information they're getting, you can start to control them.

Darrin Peppard (: 05:55

So let's dig a little bit deeper into that. So as I'm listening to you talk, I'm going back into my situation, the one that I talked about kind of right off the top. And I'm wondering, how do I, from the role I was in, so I was a principal, this person was a superintendent, how do I, my space, no matter what my space might be, no matter where our listeners, specifically that,

their spot in the organizational chart might be, how do they give more attention up to that person who happens to be this toxic boss?

Kate Lowry (: 06:38

Well, you can never attention up or down. So if you know that someone gains energy because they need constant validation, you can choose to not be available or reply extra slowly to kind of reassert some of your power. You can also strategically validate them, or stroke their ego to get them to calm down and see you as an ally. really depends on how you want to play it.

And then from an information perspective, you want to be really careful to not share what you actually care about.

Darrin Peppard (: 07:16

Makes a lot of sense. know, again, I'm just gonna do this whole episode with the mindset of the person that I worked under. And so often, especially when emails or text messages or phone calls would come through, no matter what, I was going to take that call, I was gonna reply to that text, I was gonna reply to that email. And oftentimes what I discovered, and especially the more I reflect on it,

that there were times this person was sending emails at 2.30 in the morning, three o'clock in the morning or something like that. And when you work for somebody who is that fear-based leader, sometimes you don't sleep very well. So you're awake anyway. And of course there I was answering emails at three o'clock in the morning, answering text messages at three o'clock in the morning. And now I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, man, I was probably just feeding.

in the wrong way her ego that, you yeah, you know, I've got Darren right where I need them. Is that something that you have found to be pretty common in your research as you put this book together?

Kate Lowry (: 08:29

Yes, definitely. So these types of leaders think that they own you and like, mean, literally own you. think that all of your time is their time, no matter what the time of day, they have no respect for PTO, no respect for sick leave. some of the situations I've heard of have been pretty extreme, you know, people who are trying to deliver their children in the hospital that are getting emails or calls from their boss and things like that. And, a lot of people.

don't realize that many things for your base leaders tell them are lies. So they will say, when I say jump, you have to say how high they'll say, you're nothing without me. Like you're incompetent. Like you couldn't do anything on your own, know, without me, you're nothing. And, people sometimes start to believe them and they think, my gosh, I didn't realize I was so incompetent. my gosh, I didn't realize, you know, that I, I just don't get this.

I should work harder, you know, I should be more loyal, I should put more time in. But it's actually kind of the opposite. You do need to be somewhat responsive, but availability is actually a form of leverage. When and how you choose to respond is a form of ownership. oftentimes I will also tell people that these types of leaders feed on reactions.

So they really like, you know, having a meeting with people in front of them and either making everyone in the meeting bow down to them or, you know, scream as they metaphorically kick them, take away their budgets, take away their initiatives. So one of the safest things that you can do is pretend that you're a really inert part of the landscape. I call this like pretending to be a gray rock, right? You can kick a rock, you can yell at a rock. It's not going to do anything. And that's really boring for a fear-based leader.

And so if you reinforce that you're not around all the time for them to kick when they do kick you, it's pretty boring and you don't have a lot of vulnerabilities that takes away a lot of the levers that they're trying to pull.

Darrin Peppard (: 10:42

That's so interesting. I'm looking back at some of the things that you had shared with me in our first conversation. And, you know, this I think is kind of tying into what, what you had said back then, which is really getting to the core of what it is that motivates the leader.

who is behaving in this way. A lot of what you're sharing really just sounds like just narcissistic behaviors, very much that it's all about them and they don't seem to value or validate anyone around them. Let's maybe dig a little bit deeper into some of the other tools in your toolkit that helped you be successful and of course went on to.

Kate Lowry (: 11:01

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (: 11:26

create this book that everybody is definitely going to be purchasing after they hear this.

Kate Lowry (: 11:31

Yeah, definitely. So there are a lot of different tools that are important here. But two that I think are especially important are recognizing what their capacity is. I call this don't shop for milk at the hardware store. If you go to a hardware store looking for milk, you're always going to be disappointed. And fear-based leaders only have certain things on their store shelf.

they're not capable of recognition, empathy, appreciation, respect. They fundamentally don't have the psychological capacity for that. And so what you have to recognize is, okay, you know, they do have control over my budget. They do have control over who I can hire. You know, they do have control over the rules of the road here. So I'm only going to go to them with things that they are actually capable of. And then secondly,

Something that people don't think about enough is how to preserve their own autonomy and their own resilience. So there are two chapters in my book that are specifically about how to protect your own energy and how to make sure that you have a diversified identity. Because if you want to launch and learn a totally new skillset, you can't be pouring from an empty cup. And so I say to anyone who is dealing with a leader like this,

recognize that they're deeply draining to be around and create an active strategy of three things you'll do each week that bring you joy, that bring you energy so that you have something to pull from. And then with identity, a lot of people don't realize that they only have one source of identity. It might be, I'm a superintendent or I'm a principal. But what happens is that when you get in an environment with fear-based leaders and they start to threaten that identity,

It can make people feel like their world is collapsing. So try to make a list of the other sources of identity in your life. You know, maybe you're a teacher and a tutor and you big bread and you're a father and you're an uncle, all of these different things that make you who you are so that if you know, one leg that's holding you up on the chair underneath you gets cut away, you don't fall over because you have a lot of other things supporting your sense of self.

Darrin Peppard (: 13:51

I think that's really, really important. And I appreciate that you bring that up because, you again, I'm going back into into my specific scenario and I don't think I necessarily looked at myself only as a principal, but you know, because I was a high school principal, it was a pretty all consuming role, pretty all consuming responsibility. And so, you know, just just hearing you say that and think about, know, yeah, you know,

I'm a dad, I'm a husband, you know, I'm more than just the principal at this high school, I think is really valuable. And I would say this too, in my situation, I think I had the flexibility and ultimately leveraged that flexibility to say, I'm gonna take my talents elsewhere. I think it's time for me to move on. I probably made some mistakes in terms of how maybe I fired back at that fear-based leader.

let's, let's do a couple of things here. One, let's talk about what I'm hearing you say is not necessarily to go back and challenge or fire back at that fear-based leader. but then also for those who don't have the flexibility like I did, or I could say, you know what, I'll just go somewhere else where I am valued, where I had the opportunity to not work in that type of an environment. We'll talk about maybe some strategies to.

Kate Lowry (: 15:10

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (: 15:18

to to survive when you know you're going to stay in that particular place. let's start with the first part of that. is that a good idea? Is this something that you talk about in terms of, at a point, that fear-based leader may push you to finally snap and you fire back? Which, guilty. What?

How would you say that people should address that? What's the best hack?

Kate Lowry (: 15:49

Yeah, definitely. So they are deliberately trying to provoke you. They, they want you to have explosions so they can go, look, this proves my point. This person's unprofessional. This person's incompetent. Like, look, you know, they said this thing to me, like that's so not okay. Now I get to fire them, push them out, take away their initiatives, et cetera. And so it's tricky because to them, everything in life is a game. You're either winning or you're losing.

Now I don't think about life as a game, but when you're around them, you're, you're playing a game by their rules. And so it's, it's best to think of it as a game of chess and think if I stand up to them strongly now, what will the blowback be on me? Will it actually protect what I'm seeking to protect? If not, is there another tactic I can try? And my book outlines some scenarios where it actually is really important to challenge them.

Um, it's really important to challenge them, um, to nip some bad behaviors in the bud, but challenging them doesn't mean yelling at them and saying, wow, you're an insecure idiot. I hate you so much. It means, um, oftentimes saying, uh, you know, they'll often tell people things that aren't true. Um, that didn't happen. Um, you're just imagining things. If, if you see someone who's trying to deny your reality and tell you that there's an alternate set of facts.

It's very important to say, I know what is right and true. You're not engaging in an argument with them, but you're saying, I know myself, I know reality, and I am firm on those things. So don't play that game with me. And it's not interesting because it's not fireworks. They want fireworks. but there are ways to be firm and then there are plenty of ways to work against them.

in ways that they don't even notice. And that's what I would encourage people to explore.

Darrin Peppard (: 17:55

Excellent. Okay, so what about the people who don't have the opportunity to say, hey, I'm out. So in my particular situation, there were a handful of others who were leading buildings or were part of buildings that were just so deeply rooted in the community that they were not going to get up and move. They weren't going to go somewhere else. I was an outsider. mean, I was in the community for 11 years, but you know, I knew all along at a point

I'm going to move on to the next opportunity. And so for me it was, okay, this just accelerates the process. But there are those who maybe don't have the ability to move on. So let's maybe give them one or two more things that can help them to survive in that type of environment.

Kate Lowry (: 18:43

Yes, so that's who I wrote this book for. You know, if you can't leave, don't feel bad. 80 % of people can't leave. You know, people need paychecks. They're tied into certain local communities. They have certain needs. And oftentimes, there are very specific things you need from the organization that a fear-based leader is part of. And so, especially now where...

you know, around 70 % of the leaders I've encountered in the last few years have been this type of leader. It can be very frying pan into the fire. And so that's, that's where toolkits like this are especially useful. If you can leave, leave, but otherwise you have to start thinking about what is truly important to you in your job, in your role, whatever organization you're in, what are your non-negotiables? What do you want to protect at all costs? You know, this could be if

If you're working with patients, maybe you're protecting the welfare of a certain patient population. Maybe you're protecting after school program for at-risk kids. Whatever it is, decide what that is very early. And then expect that you're going to have to sacrifice other things to preserve what it is you really care about. Then you have to learn how to become kind of unreadable to this type of leader.

You can be a gray rock, you cannot respond. You can be a boring part of the landscape, or you can choose a different role to play. You can play that you're their ally and that you like them. You know, you can play that you really care about a certain thing. That's not what you actually care about. It's up to you to decide, but it should be an intentional choice. And then you need to master some of the skills for surviving around them. How do you play the game?

that they're intent on playing. How do you make sure that you're always three moves ahead of them? For example, if you are running a location of a school district, you will need to understand how to essentially negotiate with thieves. If you really need three budget items, you should be going into negotiations requesting six budget items, really pushing on the three you don't want.

Kate Lowry (: 21:04

because they're going to want to take things away from you. You need to give them sacrifice initiatives to make them feel like they're winning. But this is really counterintuitive to people who don't live life playing games.

Darrin Peppard (: 21:18

Right, maybe another way to say it. So if there are people who are like, yeah, but I don't want to play games, what I just heard you say is as a leader, you need to be extremely strategic. Really think about, how do...

How do I process this? love how you've made the chess analogy a couple of times. How can I stay two or three moves ahead of them? And the more strategic thinking that you leverage, the more likely you are to be able to stay ahead of that. There's no question about that. Man, I just love all this stuff so, so very much. Here in just a little bit of time we have left before I get to my final question here on the show.

You said to me a couple of different times that you wrote this book genuinely to try to help as many people as possible to work through this. Now, certainly the book itself is going to be a great resource for that. But let's say they were working with you one on one. I know you do some of that that executive coaching, CEO coaching. So one, I'm curious, have you

Kate Lowry (: 22:12

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (: 22:29

done some coaching with someone who is maybe utilizing fear-based leadership. And if so, how do you coach them through that? How do you coach them to see that in themselves?

Kate Lowry (: 22:41

Yeah, definitely. So when you are coaching someone who is a fear-based leader, it is all about aligning incentives and showing them the end game. They don't have strong self-awareness. If you tell them you have deficiencies in these areas and it's costing your team money, they will, they will fire you as a coach. So instead you have to show them why it pays.

to do the right things. I get that your employees are so annoying and that they're always asking you for stupid stuff. But if you give them 30 % of what they're asking for, your attrition should go down by 15%. I get that you think that it's really annoying that you have to listen to your employees' ideas for new products because you know what you want to do anyway. So.

here's a forum that we're going to create where your chief of staff filters the suggestions back up to you, making sure that they're not wasting your time, right? It's, it's about showing them why it's in their best interest to behave differently. But at the end of the day, I don't tend to coach a lot of these leaders because they don't have a strong growth orientation. The reality is that they're insecure and they're running on fear.

And people who run on fear are both uncreative and predictable, but they also have quite a bit of trouble growing because they don't see what's in it for them and they're very scared to try new things.

Darrin Peppard (: 24:25

makes a whole lot of sense. mean, you know, you're typically not going to coach one of those people up because yeah, they don't see the need for that particular level of growth in themselves while they see it in literally everyone around them.

Kate Lowry (: 24:40

I do work with a lot of CEOs that I call are on the slippery slope to being an asshole. Being a CEO is a slippery slope to being an asshole. And so there's a lot of accountability and course correction that happens with most of my clients, but I try to catch them before they get to that stage.

Darrin Peppard (: 24:58

That's probably a pretty good move. think that's probably a very, very strong adage in coaching in general. If you can catch them early, and in this case, catch them before they slide too far off that slippery slope. I love that so very much. Man, Kate, our time has just absolutely flown by. Let's do this. Let's get to the final question I ask everybody here on the show. This is the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. So how are you leaning into leadership right now?

Kate Lowry (: 25:29

wow. A whole bunch of things. So I'm growing my coaching practice, working with Silicon Valley mission-driven underrepresented CEOs. Right now I'm doing a book tour, which is a lot of fun. I'm also running a bunch of advocacy projects, both in the complex chronic illness space and in disability rights and gender equality. so I try to, no matter what section of my life I'm in, whether that's

writing for a magazine or supporting my friends or doing activist lawsuits, show up fully, know, do my very best every single day and make sure that I'm both surrounding myself with people who are much smarter than I am and consistently asking the people around me, both above and below me for feedback about how I can grow to best support them.

Darrin Peppard (: 26:26

I love that one so much. obviously people are going to want to, you know, check you out, get in touch with you, follow you on social media, that kind of stuff. What are the best ways for people to get in touch with Kate?

Kate Lowry (: 26:39

Definitely. So you can follow along on my sub stack at caitlaury.substack.com on Instagram at Kate unbreakable Lowry. You can check out my website, caitlaury.com or follow me on LinkedIn or Facebook.

Darrin Peppard (: 26:55

outstanding and folks the book again is titled unbreakable how to thrive under fear based leaders released on the 28th of October so folks that book is out get out there grab yourself a copy there's a link down in the show notes for you to go and get that and definitely get connected with Kate Kate Lowry thank you so much for joining me here on Leaning Into Leadership

Kate Lowry (: 27:21

Thanks for having me, Darren. It's been a pleasure.

All right, folks, awesome conversation there with Kate Lowry. Certainly appreciate her coming and joining me here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Her book is out and available now. Once again, it is titled Unbreakable, How to Thrive Under Fear-Based Leaders. Make sure you get down there in the show notes, hit all the links, get connected with Kate, get to her website, go check her out on social media, and pick up a copy of Unbreakable.

And now it's time for a pep talk. So today on the pep talk, I want to share a coaching conversation that I had this week with one of the leaders that I work with. And the conversation was just really interesting. We talked a few weeks ago and one of the things that she kind of felt challenged with was really being connected with the people that she supervises as part of her organization. this is not a school principle, by the way.

This particular leader said, you know, I'm kind of struggling Darren to have everybody take ownership. I am struggling with not being a micromanager of everybody who I oversee. And so we put a couple of pieces in place. And today when we jumped on our call, she shared with me how doing those individual rounds, those short touch base meetings with each of the people.

that are her direct reports, gave her the opportunity to lean in and build relationships, to lean in and listen to them and hear what were some of their struggles, what were some of their successes. And man, it was incredible to hear just how much her direct reports are appreciating her leadership and how she's already, even in just one set of rounds, starting to see more ownership coming from the people she supervises.

Darrin Peppard (: 04:52

Look, here's the thing people, leadership is a person game. It is about people. You've heard me talk about it here on the show many, many, many times. Leadership is a people business. If you're struggling in that same kind of situation where you feel like your direct reports aren't necessarily giving you what you need, sometimes it isn't about giving them more directives. Sometimes it isn't about spending more time telling them what to do.

but rather setting the time aside to have regular conversations to hear what their struggles are, hear what their successes are, and lean in to building those relationships. Hey, that's what I've got for you this week, folks. Lean in, go have those conversations because it truly does make a difference. As always, thank you for joining me here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. If you haven't already, folks, make sure you get down there, leave us a review.

We love hearing some of the things that our listeners say about the show as we continue to watch the show grow and grow and grow. Your reviews, your five-star ratings, you sharing the show with other people that also can benefit from leaning into leadership help us more than you know. So I'll thank you in advance for that and just remind you, as always, get out there and have a road to awesome week.