Episode 208: Helping Teens Make Better Choices with Kevin Mecchella

Darrin Peppard (: 00:01

All right, everybody, welcome back into the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. This is episode 208. As always, I am Dr. Darren Peppered, and incredibly grateful that you are here with me joining me on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. you know, one of the things that I am most passionate about in my work is helping school leadership teams move from chaos to clarity.

from running around putting out fires to actually leading with purpose and intentionality. When I get to do this work, it absolutely lights my fire. Now, whether I'm coaching a principal in a one-on-one situation or guiding an administrative team through some type of strategic alignment or developing their clear vision, maybe even just supporting a district-level leadership team in terms of how they create that consistent culture-driven system.

The goal is always the same. It's helping leaders focus on the work that truly matters. You know, when we create that clarity, it unlocks something extremely powerful. And it's not just for the adults, but the entire school community. Your students feel it, and your teachers see it, and the culture begins to reflect it. I want to help you and your leadership team.

find that clarity. Move away from the chaos, the constant firefighting, the non-stop running from one problem to the next. I want to help you start leading your organization. I want to help you unlock those skills that you have deep inside you. I want to help you get reconnected with the work that truly matters and is going to drive your organization forward. So reach out.

Let's have a conversation. Just email me at darren at road to awesome.net or go to road awesome.net and hit the contact button. Let's have a conversation. I want to help you and your team get away from the chaos and really move in to clarity. Now, speaking of of impact, speaking of clarity, let's talk about some culture and some impact and today's guest is somebody who's doing just exactly that work.

in schools across the country and in a way that's both unique and deeply personal to him. Kevin McKella is a former K-12 music teacher. He's a professional musician and now he's a national speaker who works directly with schools on mental health, mindset, and on the power of making better decisions. I love this because this is something I used to say to my students all the time. In fact, I said it so much that I didn't even realize.

that I would say it. It became my catchphrase, make better choices. That's the work that Kevin does. He's got an incredible story, a dynamic stage presence, and he's got a truly intentional approach to make his work stick with students long after he leaves the building. This is a conversation that is just about that. Choices, it's about identity and about helping our kids find a path that they can be proud of. So let's dive in to this conversation with Kevin McKellar.

Darrin Peppard (: 00:00

All right, everybody, welcome back into the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. My guest on the show today is Kevin McKella. Kevin, thank you so much for joining me here on the show.

Kevin (: 00:11

Darren, thank you for having me.

Darrin Peppard (: 00:13

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm looking forward to this conversation and maybe to kind of frame a little bit of that before we dive in and have you tell folks a little bit about you. A reminder to my listeners, of course, not only was I a superintendent, but I was a high school principal. And often we were looking for almost anything we could bring to the table to help our young people learn.

about the world around them, to gain skills and to gain insights so that they could ultimately be better prepared for life outside of our walls of our school. But also we wanted to help our students learn how to make good choices. And I tell you right now, I mean, it was honestly one of the phrases I said to kids all the time. So much so I would say it.

like subconsciously, I didn't even realize I was saying to kids on their way out the door every Friday, you know, hey, make good choices, make good choices, make good choices. And man, could I have used somebody like Kevin McKellar when I was a high school principal. Among the work Kevin does is speaking to kids about making good choices. with that said, Kevin, again, welcome into the show. Let's, let's have you maybe

share a little bit of background, a little bit of information about you with our listeners before we really get rolling into our conversation.

Kevin (: 01:47

Sure. Well, once again, Dara, thank you so much for having me on. This is really, really cool. Love your show. Love what you do and love the deep, deep conversations that you have with all these wonderful professionals and and shedding some light on one of the most important things, which, of course, is leadership. But for me, interestingly enough, I am a musician of all things. I like to start and throw people a little curveball there. I am a low brass player. So I play euphonium trombone. I also do a little flugelhorn.

And I'll tell you why that's kind of important and part of my story in a moment, but my real career started actually as a K through 12 music teacher. And, you know, even before then, interestingly enough, when I was in high school, I was the class clown guy. Okay, so I was anything to get a laugh, even if it meant my own dignity and safety for that matter. And I carried that

the that story about who I needed to be for quite some time and then in college it really shifted it shifted from this this need to be accepted to this need to have success and you know a couple things when you you know in your late teens early 20s when you're in university a lot of growing up happens in that moment so.

I took that intensity of needing to be liked and put it into this career of being a musician and a teacher. And I had this identity of, okay, success is everything. And the problem is if you don't live your identity, then you have an incredible amount of stress, anxiety, uncertainty that comes your way. And when you don't know how to deal with those emotions, you make some really poor decisions. So I've made some great decisions in my life, but I've also made some really poor ones. And, you know, later in life,

⁓ after finally having some success and doing my master's work at the Royal Liege Conservatory in Belgium and having some teaching positions here and there, I've kind of learned a lot.

about how I relate to decision making and that process of how we make decisions both both extrinsically and intrinsically. So meaning you know the decisions of what do I have for breakfast the decision do I get in the car do I pick up the vape the decision.

⁓ You know, what do I decide to think about myself? What do I decide to think about others? Everything that we do every bit of success that our teens have in their lives or our lack of success is based on the decisions that we make. So, you my goal in my journey as a speaker and educator and musician and whatever ⁓ is to teach teens a process to make better decisions, break it down through a few different formats that I deliver in both assembly formats and work.

workshops, some digital courses and things like that. And I just want kids to realize that their decisions are everything.

Darrin Peppard (: 04:48

Yeah, I think that's there's there's so much to that. And there's certainly a few things in there. I want to unpack a little bit further. You know, I've I've I've said it often as as a speaker myself and to anybody and I'm sure you get this question frequently to when people know that you're a speaker. A lot of times they will say, I want to do what you do. You know, how how did you get into that and

And what exactly is that like? And I've always felt like, and it's one of my all time favorite quotes. It's certainly, I'm not the one who said it, but it's one that I truly love. And that is, we are uniquely positioned to help the person that we used to be. And when I hear you talk about, certainly you've made good decisions, but you've also made not so good decisions. That's certainly true of all of us.

Let's maybe go a little bit deeper there. Was there, and I'm not asking you to like tell us the story of the decision, but was there kind of that point in time you mentioned this transition from, you know, anything for a laugh to anything for success. Was there kind of a ⁓ moment in time or something that you can go back to that you say, this is when I realized the importance of the decisions I make.

for myself.

Kevin (: 06:16

I'm the way you frame that actually you only have one really crucial turning point in my life but I actually just thought of another one which is really interesting. So in college in my undergrad I had two things happen.

One was not so serious, but it was a different perspective shift, which is definitely we can talk about a little bit why that is so important in having perspective for students whose prefrontal cortexes have yet to be fully developed. But when I was in college, I ⁓ didn't not go to a serious music school. I went to a local private university, Hofstra University, and it had an OK music program. It wasn't anything crazy, but

When I walked in as a euphonium player and to give your your audience of excuse me educators and administrators a little context there think of a small tuba. All right. It is used only in military bands and collegiate concert bands.

and some things over in Europe, brass bands and nothing. So very rare. ⁓ And I walked into that university. I think I was the only euphonium player. There was like one or two other tuba players. So our whole ensemble was more like a quartet with the professor. So we're just sitting there like, OK. And that being the only fish in a small pond was just like, OK, this is what it is. I want to be a teacher, focus on a teaching. That's right. Focus on pedagogy. Great.

But then in my junior year, they had a whole influx of students, tuba players, euphonium players. And all of a sudden, I had this decision to make is either I'm going to be that big fish and continue to develop my skill and figure out why music was so important in the music classroom. I had to have that ⁓ concept with me. But if I wanted to continue to pursue, now I have competition. So that was just a really interesting kind of

point in my life where I said, OK, I can either just coast by and, you know, just not grab success or or I can still, you know, like I said, be that big fish in a small pond. So that was one thing I just thought of. And I'm so glad that I thought of that because that is part of that. But more importantly is that alongside this process ⁓ was this other half of me where I.

ollege because I graduated in: 2008

had some really positive experiences in the classroom, had some really negative ones too. And the problem is that when you don't have that initial success right away, like I said, and you're living against incongruent with your identity, the stress and anxiety comes like it's like no other. And what I did was to deal with those emotions, I dealt with those emotions in the most ⁓ very simple and negative ways possible by ignoring them.

and by literally kind of just living in the moment. So, you know, going out with my buddies all hours of the night, drinking, doing stupid, dumb and quite frankly, illegal things. And even if I wasn't going out, I would just still stay up all hours of the night because I didn't even want to start the next day. We have all been there once or once or twice. But I mean, this was chronic. I just didn't want to avoid the problems and the lack of success in the next day. So I just stayed up and.

When you run your life on three to four hours of sleep for months on end, it catches up with you. And one day coming home in the afternoon, I fell asleep at the wheel on the expressway. And I watched this car that I collided with in front of me flip, turn and flip on its hood and land upside down. And in that moment, I just like thought to myself, I might've just killed somebody. Now, thank God everybody was actually amazingly okay. But ⁓

that was the moment where I said okay every decision I make is either taking me down this path or that path so

Darrin Peppard (: 10:41

And it's something that I think every one of us certainly needs to be cognizant of. And we probably all either have that moment that wakes us up or at some point, ⁓ certainly the prefrontal cortex finally finishes developing and maybe we understand cause and effect. for every one of us, certainly there needs to be something that helps us realize

you know, we really do have some control of the direction that, that we have for our life. And I know that's a big part of the message that you deliver when you're doing speaking, when you're doing workshops and that type of stuff with, with, with teenage students. One, I'm curious what made you say, I want to speak to teenagers and, two,

What were your first few experiences like? I want to get into the actual message and that kind of stuff in a couple of minutes, but the speaker in me just has to know. I'm always so curious, you know, when I get a chance to talk to other speakers, why this audience and what were your first couple of experiences like?

Kevin (: 11:59

Well, I'll tell you, I love this question because it's the best. I'll you my very first experience. My well, of course, the very first experience was a free gig that I did for my I mean, it literally, you know, I did what I was taught, right. I went through my phone book. I said, who do I know that's connected in education amongst the million of different teachers? ⁓ You know, I found one and he was obviously a very good friend of mine. was in my wedding party. And I said his name is also Kevin. He hey, man, I'm doing this thing now. ⁓ Can I come down?

and speak to your kids and you get some footage and you know make a demo reel and all this thing. mean this couldn't have been a better situation. He just literally I walked in the door. I mean he teaches in the DOE in New York City. So just like it there's no it's just like yeah come on in. Let's like there's no I mean even if you sign in. ⁓ So that was beautiful a great experience to get like I said some footage to use as a demo reel ⁓ and just get my feet wet. Obviously worst

gig ever. mean it was decent but it was not good. My second real first gig and this is an interesting little thing was I got paid nine hundred dollars. ⁓ It was like a miracle and I was so in the moment I loved it. was in again it was a it was a really good experience for what it was. But I was ⁓ I wanted to be a little more intimate because there was only so many people.

maybe there was like, I don't know, 20, was a community night, it was like 20, 25 people. And the problem was they were all spread out throughout this huge auditorium. So I was like, well, it's an intimate thing. I don't need to use a mic. So I'm pushing, I'm really projecting. And you know, when you project, you move a lot of air in and out. And what happens when you move a lot of air in and out? Yeah, nice little belch right in the middle there. And I just kind of like, oh, and it just flubbed right through it. And I'm like, half the people definitely heard that. Okay, I'm gonna get...

But you know what was funny? In that moment, as embarrassing that was, it didn't even faze me because the whole experience doing that and talking about what was so incredibly passionate to me and also working with some of the actual teens in that community night, I was like, my gosh, this is exactly what I was put here on this earth to do. And to answer your first question, excuse me, like why?

Darrin Peppard (: 13:58

Ha ha.

Kevin (: 14:27

Why do I want to speak to teens? Like, why do I want to speak to in particular high school students? I think one of the reasons that my high school experience while yeah, it was silly and I did a lot of stupid things like I had the best four years, probably, I mean, the best of my life, but just such an incredible experience. I was friends with everybody. I don't think very few people I think didn't like me. And not to say I was Mr. Popular, but I just was friends with all every group.

I worked hard in my version of working hard back then. I enjoyed myself and I had the perspective to know that this is such a beautiful short time of my life. I know things are going to change and I want students to really, as to the best of their ability, know that it's such a beautiful time because never in their life they're going to be in a building where every single adult that comes into that building is there for them.

That is such a beautiful time in their lives. And a lot of times they don't have the perspective. They also don't have the perspective to say that, this is one of the few times in my life where I get to devote to myself entirely. I am supposed to be selfish. So I just think teaching them a framework to make even better decisions and try to avoid some bad decisions is such a crucial 80-20, right? The 20 % that'll make 80 % of the difference.

Darrin Peppard (: 15:51

Yeah, 100%. And you I think, man, you hit on some great things there. I love that your first gig was ⁓ a free gig, that at least you got some demo reel out of it, which is always a good thing. And ⁓ you and I are right there as far as the first paid gig. think I got paid $1,000 for my first gig and thought, wow, this is amazing. Yeah.

Kevin (: 16:19

you

Darrin Peppard (: 16:20

Certainly quite some some time ago. But but what's what's really kind of kind of ⁓ rolling in my head right now and and and maybe you know wearing my wearing my high school principal hat. I'm curious and this this will feed right into where we want to go as far as the the actual work that you do in an auditorium in a

you know, in a classroom, those types of things with teenagers. But as, as a high school principal, if you and I were sitting and having a conversation and you were saying, Hey, I want to come to your school. want to speak to your kids. And you've touched on this, but I'd love to see you go a little bit deeper here. ⁓ I want to hire speakers who helped me solve a problem. So, so tell me what's, what is the, what's the number one thing, whether that's the problem you can help me solve as a school leader.

or the number one outcome maybe that my students would have as they come out of that auditorium, as they finish listening to you speak or work with you in a workshop.

Kevin (: 17:30

So that's a great question. And I think you there are numerous problems that administrators face when working with somebody from the outside, whether it be a speaker or an organization. And it could be, hey, our biggest problem is attendance. Our biggest problem is bullying. big whatever it may be. You there are some commonalities there. But what I find the most is is an interesting kind of meta problem is that

Once the speaker leaves.

It's kind of like a one and done event. And yeah, they're motivated. But what happens when that motivation leaves? If I motivate students, wonderful. That's why I hate the term motivational speaker because like that's great. But like what happens then when I leave? It leaves with me. So how do we actually inspire? This is I remember talking to somebody who I can't forget who said this like inspire inspiration. How do students feel inspired to make a change and make better decisions? Well,

One of the ways that I do that is to leave as much of a lasting effect as I can. So one of the things that I actually do is present part of my ⁓ servicing offers is to present something called the visionary values program where

not only do I do a keynote or assembly and a workshop, but then what we'll do is we'll actually and few schools are taking me up on this because they have their own internal systems. But if they're at the right time where say there's a leadership change or if they're trying to, for lack of a better word, rebrand and they're trying to make their tenants right there, make their their values, if you will, and have their or their acronyms. You know, I just worked with a school who did a path.

So it was, you know, perseverance, attitude, teamwork, and ⁓ forget the age, but you get my point. So what they're trying to do is they're trying to fit, have something that is a lasting effect. once we do the keynote and the workshop, that workshop is comprised of students who actually want to create their own school's core values. So we actually together write up these core values. And later on, we actually work with the staff.

So we say, hey, this is we're not teaching you anything, but this is what the core values ⁓ that your own students came up with that we're going to implement school wide, maybe even district wide. And here's some just some ideas how you can implement throughout your classroom and different, ⁓ whether it be lesson planning activities or just talking points. And then at night we come back and we take those same students who actually created the core values and they come back at night. We have a community day and we get everybody involved. Parents, know, general community

members to come and present and say hey this is the lasting effect that we want you to help us with we want you to to actually in force these values at home so with this whole cyclical effect and on top of that.

which is, know, there are some people doing something to that effect. But on top of that, what I do is I give them a whole bunch of actual physical items. So we create t shirts that have the values printed on the back with their school logo. We get the wristbands. We got a digital course that comes with that. We got ⁓ just so many other, you know, banners and different decals, all these things that are really part of a whole program that these kids by the end of the year, they're like, we get it. All right. How you one respect value to kind of whatever. Right.

But we need to make a lasting change. So to do that, you need to have ⁓ a lot of things that you leave behind. So that's one of the ⁓ ways that I kind of approach that problem that they're facing.

Darrin Peppard (: 21:16

Yeah, no, I think that's really important. When it becomes, I like how you said that, you know, if it's just a one and done, you came in, you spoke, you left, then it is what it is. But when it becomes something that student leaders take some ownership of, take it to, you know, to the staff, share that collectively with the community, then you have an opportunity for it to become a part of.

of who you really are and for your values to really come out. I think that's really, really powerful. One more question. This is kind of an off the wall question, but, and I don't know where this is gonna lead us, but I think it's gonna be a fun question. And then we'll get to ⁓ the last question I always ask here on the podcast. But ⁓ as a speaker, we're asked all kinds of questions. And my primary audience are adults, typically in the leadership space.

Kevin (: 21:55

you

Darrin Peppard (: 22:12

a little bit different than speaking to kids. And I've certainly, you know, done my fair share of speaking to kids. And kids ask some really entertaining questions. So, and I know I gave you no advance warning on this, but I just have to ask, what are maybe one or two of the most entertaining questions you've ever had from a kid?

Kevin (: 22:35

Okay. So I'm trying to think of a really good one. I have one that's always reoccurring probably every other gig. I get this question. So I'll definitely share that one. But I'm just trying to think if there's any like the funniest question I've ever. Okay. All right. I got I got a situation that happened. But here we go. So here's the common question that I get probably literally every other gig. So being a

the conservatory trained musician I incorporate music into the program so you know again the whole reason why is not because it's only fun and entertaining which of course it is but I use it as a teaching tool and third I talk about some of the decisions I've made that made me go down this path of music and leaving the country and going studying in Europe at the conservatory so fine so that's part of it.

So, you know, first thing I do, I'm playing. So right when they're all walking in, I've got my flugelhorn right in my hand. And I can tell you how many times students say, hey, do you you play that? And I'm like thinking to myself, no, no, I don't. ⁓

I don't know what this is. don't like, you know, like, it's always, you know, and, and I don't want to be rude because like the first time I was like, No, I don't. All right, that was rude. So I just like, Yeah, I will try. We'll give it a shot. Now, the one thing that sticks out was interesting wasn't really a question. But he said, When did you when did you graduate? When do you graduate high school? I'm like, All right.

Darrin Peppard (: 23:49

Yeah.

Kevin (: 24:08

I graduated 2005, you know, and he's like, wait, do you live around here? I was like, yeah, yeah, I live in Nassau County, Long Island, New York. And he's like, really? My dad used to be in, you know, he grew up in Nassau, what town? said, Massapicua, Plain Edge. And he's like, wait, what? He's like, you graduated Plain Edge? What year? 2005. like, my dad graduated. So he's, and we graduated through a small. ⁓

you know, 230 kids. And I thought I knew everybody. I thought I knew everybody. But this kid was so determined that this I forget the father's name, but da da da. And I'm like, first of all, I'm like, you're in middle school and I have like a four year old at home. I'm like, all right, now I'm starting to feel old. Number one. Number two, I don't remember his name. So like this was just one of those moments where was like, I got to go find my yearbook when I go home. Yeah, very listen, I get so many random questions and so many random situations. It's always it's never the same. Let's put it that way.

Yeah

Darrin Peppard (: 25:05

Yeah, for sure. had a ⁓ couple of different times. I have had situations where I'm speaking at an event and somebody will come up afterwards and say, hey, do you remember so and so? And either it was somebody that I had worked with or I hired as a principal or one time I'm speaking at an event in Nashville and I looked down in the front row and one of my former students is.

right there and I just stopped what I was doing and she stood up and gave me a hug and I'm like practically in tears and I'm telling everybody in the audience like one of my former students right here and so you just yeah you never know what's going to come at you when when you stand up in front of an audience no matter whether it's middle school kids or or if it's grown-ups ⁓ outstanding outstanding stuff Kevin I

Kevin (: 25:38

my gosh.

Darrin Peppard (: 25:56

I know people are definitely going to want to reach out and learn more about your program. And we'll talk about that here in just a second. man, our time is flying by. And we're already at that point in time. I got to ask you the same question I ask everybody here on the podcast. It's the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. So what, Kevin, are you doing to lean into leadership?

Kevin (: 26:17

What I'm doing to lean into leadership is to lean into myself. And what I mean by that is if I'm going to be a leader as a father, a leader as a ⁓ person in the education space, a leader for teens, I'm going to have to make sure I put my oxygen mask on first before I help others. OK, so for me for years and years and years, mean, well over a

I have been implementing a fairly rigorous morning routine, workout, meditate, breathe, stretch, eat right, all these things. I literally have done the first thing on my app as like the five boxes or whatever. So anyway, the point of this is that...

Since the speaking business has been really, really ⁓ taking off in the last few years, I find myself eating into that time, eating into that time, eating into that time where I really now was like, you know, doing a couple of sets in my gym, you know, downstairs here and like, I don't know, like maybe brushing my teeth like it was just it's not it's not good. So to lean into leadership, I'm leaning back into myself and I'm reorganizing a couple things and really focusing on that morning routine so that I can go in

to the rest of my day being the best version of myself. And for teachers, listen.

If you have to wake up at 445, yeah, maybe you're not going to spend a two hour morning routine doing what you need to do. But even if it's a 15 minute process where you write three things down, you're grateful for if you, like I said, do a little mantra or do a little breathing exercise, whatever it is, if you just take that little bit of time to invest in yourself, I can promise you later on when you're faced with, ⁓ you know, a disciplinary issue and or some things that you just noticed that the state require.

whatever it is, you're gonna be able to handle that so much better.

Darrin Peppard (: 28:17

I love that, that taking care of ourself. A lot of times people don't think about that as leadership, but it very much is leadership. You certainly need to take care of you before you can take care of others. I really appreciate that answer. So Kevin, people are definitely going to want to reach out, learn more about the work you do, helping teens make better decisions. So how do people get in touch with you? How do they learn?

more about your work and ultimately say, hey, I want to bring Kevin to my school.

Kevin (: 28:52

Yeah. Yeah. So if you head over to Kevin McKellar dot com or if you just search my name Kevin M.E.C.C. ⁓ you know you're going to find my site which obviously find all of my social media silliness but you'll find my site which goes into a little bit more deeper dive of what this program actually is about. And then pretty much all over the site it says book a call and that would be the next step if you guys would like to learn a little bit more about you know how I help teens and how I help districts.

⁓ make better decisions, then you just book a call and we'll find some time to have a deeper chat.

Darrin Peppard (: 29:27

Yeah, and folks, would tell you when you go on that site, Kevin's got a really good, it's like maybe about a three, three and a half minute video where you get to see him in front of an audience, but you also get to listen to him talk about why this work is so important to him. Definitely worth you going and checking out. ⁓ And I got to say this too, you know, this is the very first time that we've had anyone talk about a flugelhorn or a euphonium.

here on the podcast and you've said them both twice. So congratulations for that piece. Your work here is done. Exactly.

Kevin (: 30:00

My work here is done, folks. My work here is done.

Darrin Peppard (: 30:04

my gosh. That's that is just such wonderful stuff. Kevin, thank you so much for joining me here on the podcast. I will say this really quick. Folks, we're going to put all that stuff down in the show notes. So go down, hit the show notes, get over to kevinmichela.com and check out all of his work. Kevin, thanks so much for joining me here on Leaning Into Leadership.

Kevin (: 30:24

No Darren, thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for the work you do.

Darrin Peppard (: 30:29

I appreciate it. Thanks so much.

All right, folks, awesome conversation with Kevin McKella. Certainly appreciate him joining me here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Get down into the show notes. Make sure you get connected with Kevin. Reach out, have a conversation, invite him to come and be a part of your school community and speak to your students. And now it's time for a pep talk.

So today on the pep talk, I want to jump into something that will actually come up in an episode a few weeks down the road. Earlier today, I was recording an episode with Todd Neslone and Todd will be a guest on the show in June. And as we were having a conversation, I was struck by just how passionate he is about what he does. Now, yes, many of us are very passionate about what we do, but it really just comes out in a different way.

with Todd. If you've ever followed Todd on social media, if you've listened to him speak, read any of his books, you know that definitely the passion really comes out. But he said something that I thought was really intriguing. And I don't want you to have to wait until that particular episode comes out to hear this piece. So I'm going to share something that he said. He mentioned that through the course of his career, he's never really had like a five year plan or a, is where I want to be down.

road, but rather he's very good at finding something that he's passionate about and pursuing it. He also said that you don't have to look at leaving one thing to go do something else as a negative, or is that you're abandoning the other thing. It's just simply as a human being, we have passions. We have things that light us up, and there's nothing wrong with allowing ourselves

to go and pursue that. Now I share that with you today in the pep talk simply because I want to challenge you to think about those things that you're really passionate about. Are you still pursuing those things or is there something holding you back from chasing that thing that you would love to be doing? Don't allow yourself to get held back. Don't allow yourself to say, no, maybe I don't want to do that. And I'm not saying go quit your job tomorrow. Don't misunderstand me, but.

But certainly, if there are some things that you really care about that really light you up, go ahead, start to lean into that and allow yourself to work in areas and work in spaces that you're really passionate about. I mean, I'll be honest with you, it's why I'm doing what I'm doing. I was very passionate about helping leaders grow, helping leadership teams grow, helping people find clarity and get out of the chaos. Now I do it full time.

and I'm passionate about it. think you probably know that. So one more time, find that thing you're passionate about and don't be afraid to pursue it. Thank you guys so much for joining me here on the Leading Into Leadership podcast. If you have not yet given us a rating on your favorite podcast platform, please folks spend the two or three minutes to go give us a five star review. ⁓

say some words, know, share some feedback with me. You know, those are the types of things that really make a difference and help drive the algorithm. So more people have an opportunity to hear our leaning into leadership message. So with that, get out there, have a road to awesome week.